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    Feedback on Play session #1

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    The Merlin

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    Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  The Merlin on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:18 pm

    Please be encouraged to add any feedback you have from out game.

    I'll go First, I want to encourage more use of Fate points (in both directions) In order to do this I know that I have to start making more compels. Granted it will be easier now that I know in advance some of the options I have when compelling characters.

    I was pleased at the threat levels in the game...I do feel that the group could handle larger foes but Eric and his minions was a pretty good start.

    It is my intention to "play up" the investigative portions of the gameplay as well as situations that can be resolved in many ways...

    In any case I am interested in your feedback, let me know.
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:55 pm

    Well, although I know feedback can make some people uncomfortable, I applaud you for seeking it, Josh.

    Firstly, it think you did an amazing job of keeping us going and putting up with an extremely high level of distraction as we struggled to figure out our characters and the basic mechanics of the game (which are slightly different than other versions of Fate, but very similar).

    You really did a great job with the magical booby trap deactivation scene. Just using the complex actions mechanic for the counter spell worked really well, and was much cooler than simply looking it up.

    We, as players, have to get used to the idea of making declarations (and thus providing bonuses) to situations. We could help make the game richer that way.

    The size of the group is a bit unwieldy, so again, all props to you on Making it work out really well.

    Agree on the Fate points and compells. I think we all may adjust a few of our aspects to make it even easier on you to use them. I think the hardest part is accepting the self compels from the group and giving Fate points for them. That will probably get us going really generating a lot of compels.

    Casters are very powerful in short bursts. I thought early on that I couldn't do much compared to the amazing shapeshifters (Jeremy, Stephan, and Michael), but as I got the hang of the mechanics, it became clear that magic is super powerful and flexible. I just need to get the hang of maneuvers and blocks. I have ideas to make our guys a bit tougher now that I understand feeding power into a spell.

    I think you may have over played the power of the mentalist aspect a little. It is really just a variation on spirit in the Dresden verse if I understand correctly (and I probably don't) -- but he was a sorcerer and he used air magic as well, so I think it should probably affect physical rather than mental. At the same time, I really like the idea of it creating a different kind of stress, so I don't think it was a bad call. But it could be a bad precedent. (It will probably work even better for PC's to limit your casters with Spirit attacks causing mental stress). So I would think it might be better to limit such attacks to coming only from pure psions. But that's just my point of view.

    I think you did a great job on the mystery aspect in this game. The plot was fairly linear, though also quite flexible. I really like that. We could do better on figuring out how to help each other on The investigation as well.

    I just don't have much critical feedback for you. You resolved things quickly and fairly and kept a herd of cats moving forward to a great story and conclusion.

    Even though I really liked the challenge levels (including the really hard one at the end), I think we do need more opponents in the early going to allow everyone to have something to do. Frankly, five punks at the coffee shop and 6-8 goons at the apartment could have worked out well. The Gouls were pretty cool, but we might have been able to handle more of those, too. I think you can ramp up the challenges a little for us by increasing number, rather than difficulty and still make it really fun for us.

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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:57 am

    I've been thinking about progression and it seems to me that we may be on too slow of a pace right now (yeah with a single session I'm extrapolating on insufficient data, but I think my logic is worth considering). And I don't blame anyone --not even the system.

    You see, in order to advance to the next stage, we will need to gain 5 skill points, increase our skill level cap, and gain one refresh. So, if we gain a skill point every other game, that puts us on track to get to the next depth level in 10 sessions --or about a year of real time. Playing as infrequently as we do, I think we should plan on a faster progression.

    Keep in mind that submerged is only an additional 5 skill points, no change in level cap, and 2 MORE refresh points above neck deep. This is the point where skill progression slows a bit and probably does become 1/2 sessions - or even less frequent.

    Splintershield

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Splintershield on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:24 pm

    Josh,

    You did do an amazing job of keeping everyone focused and on track. I also really liked how you integrated San Francisco into the game.

    The only issue I really had was with equipment. It would have nice to have that defined a little more. Does Katelyn have a flashlight?, does she have lockpicks?, backup weapons?, ammo?, phone?, Snickers bar?, etc. I know you wanted to get the game going, but I'm probably more used to the Serenity game where everyone seems to have a fairly defined set of gear.

    Other than that, the game was really well done and fun. Good Job!

    Splintershield

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Splintershield on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:41 pm

    On the note of difficulty.

    I have to agree with Slagathore here. More opponents, especially with a large group, works better than a few really strong opponents (although a few really strong opponents can work well at times for a change in tempo). I think the reason is like Slagathore said, it allows everyone more of a chance to contribute and shine.

    Splintershield

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Splintershield on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:53 pm

    On the note of progression.

    I think the pace right now is fine. At this point, I think it is better to have a couple sessions at this pace, so that we can all learn and understand not only the mechanics, but also our characters and their place in the world, motivations, etc. Then when we feel comfortable with it all, we can up the pace.

    With Submerged, I would rather keep it at Up to Waist for now. Sure it's nice to have more power, abilities, skills, etc., but I like character growth and development a bit more. I find it much more fun that way.
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:31 am

    I agree with your sentiments on getting know our characters and our place in the world (and I feel great about my character's power), but my point is that to get to neck deep (the next power level) then at this pace we would need at least 10 sessions (with a skill bump ever two games) which is the better part of a real world year. If that part seems fine to you, then I can go with that. My point is that we may need a little faster progression if we are to get to neck deep -- much more so submerged -- the starting power level or the books.

    And I agree it might be nice to go head and list out your mundane gear -- as a Valkyrie it would make sense for you to have lots of utility items. But you also have channeling which can be used for minor magics --and light is a spirit evocation, and can generally be done at no cost. So you could go with Spirit and use it more for utility uses, rather than combat purposes. and it is also used for force evocations, so it would still have some combat utility. Might be good to have a fair to good discipline so you could do it reliably. I wish I had realized I could do minor light spells. But I probably wouldn't have anyway. I'm self limiting to air evocations until next session so I can create some progression for my character. I will also spend another refresh so I can gain greater control over my spells. That way as I find my way/role, I will get better at it.

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    The Merlin

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  The Merlin on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:14 pm

    To summarize: there is a consensus that the group can handle some tougher opposition and that we want to look forward to do a bit of forecasting the players advancement to the next tier. Do I have that right?

    How would the group like to handle gear. I want the characters to have any appropriate equipment. I can think of a few options.

    1. The players can write down any mundane gear that fits within their resources attribute. - this is the easiest solution but offers a lot less structure and accountability of items is not an issue when we might want it to be.

    2. I can set a value on each character's resource pool and the players can spend that on items for their PC, The most balances option, kinda like buying gear with starting gold in DnD.

    3. I can issue your characters with starting gear based on your resources. Too easy...you have this stuff.

    I do want to point out that I fully intend for resources to be a part of what each character has access to. I also like the idea that PCs gear can fluctuate based on the situation rather than each character having a "Uniform" all the time (unless that's your character and then that's great!)
    For example, if the group goes to a party to scope out a suspicious individual most people will have party close and perhaps one or two items. vs. trekking into the woods looking for a group of child stealing fey. Totally different load-outs.

    Let me know what you think.
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:39 pm

    I am gear ambivalent. Mundane gear is just that. Stuff you have lying around or can easily get.

    I see Resources as something you roll when you want to get a particularly difficult to get something. Like when you want to boost a ritual so you get expensive incense. Make you're roll and add to the successes. Fail and you don't add.

    And it might even have to do with your level of preparedness, if the group wants to see it that way. "Do I have a flashlight in my trunk?" Make a resources roll at a target of 1. You make the roll, you have the flashlight. "Do I have a shovel in my trunk?" Make a resources roll at a target of 3 (or maybe 4, as it is a bit unlikely). If you make it, you realized you might need a shovel and had placed one in your trunk. "Do I have a rocket launcher in my trunk?" No. Next question?

    Of course, this is all from the perspective of the Wizard who eschews mundane gear anyway. I think you just have to use a bit of story working to resolve some of this stuff. If you have a high resources attribute, it indicates you can get what you need when you need it. Need a bullet proof vest? Have a resources of 2 or higher, you can have one. Need a Law Rocket? Have a resources of 4 and you can probably get one. That sort of thing.

    Your story says your a well connected mercenary, but you have a resources of 0? Sounds like you lost big on your last job and don't have much cash or access to good gear. And leave it at that. A 2 is actually pretty high, given the level we're playing at. A 3 is really high and should allow a character to get some acceptable gear, but never high end gear. That is the purview of the military and organized crime. Now, if the GM uses it on us, then we can gain access through recycling.

    Generally anything stronger than stuff that's street legal should require refresh, I think. That's my view, but I think other's opinions should count more than mine.

    archongamer

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  archongamer on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:55 am

    Slagathore wrote:I've been thinking about progression and it seems to me that we may be on too slow of a pace right now (yeah with a single session I'm extrapolating on insufficient data, but I think my logic is worth considering). And I don't blame anyone --not even the system.

    You see, in order to advance to the next stage, we will need to gain 5 skill points, increase our skill level cap, and gain one refresh. So, if we gain a skill point every other game, that puts us on track to get to the next depth level in 10 sessions --or about a year of real time. Playing as infrequently as we do, I think we should plan on a faster progression.

    Keep in mind that submerged is only an additional 5 skill points, no change in level cap, and 2 MORE refresh points above neck deep. This is the point where skill progression slows a bit and probably does become 1/2 sessions - or even less frequent.

    It only takes 1 point to raise any skill up 1 level as long as you still have the base under it and the cap has been increase. For example if next session the cap was increased to 5 and you had the 2 +4 skill tree one point could turn that +4 into a +5

    I do think we should have received something since a lot of people would be adding another +1 skill or something minor for the last session. Josh could have also given out get a new +1 skill instead of giving out 1 point to spend normally. FATE has a lot of flexibility that way in advancement.

    archongamer

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  archongamer on Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:12 am

    Slagathore wrote:I am gear ambivalent. Mundane gear is just that. Stuff you have lying around or can easily get.

    I see Resources as something you roll when you want to get a particularly difficult to get something. Like when you want to boost a ritual so you get expensive incense. Make you're roll and add to the successes. Fail and you don't add.

    And it might even have to do with your level of preparedness, if the group wants to see it that way. "Do I have a flashlight in my trunk?" Make a resources roll at a target of 1. You make the roll, you have the flashlight. "Do I have a shovel in my trunk?" Make a resources roll at a target of 3 (or maybe 4, as it is a bit unlikely). If you make it, you realized you might need a shovel and had placed one in your trunk. "Do I have a rocket launcher in my trunk?" No. Next question?

    Of course, this is all from the perspective of the Wizard who eschews mundane gear anyway. I think you just have to use a bit of story working to resolve some of this stuff. If you have a high resources attribute, it indicates you can get what you need when you need it. Need a bullet proof vest? Have a resources of 2 or higher, you can have one. Need a Law Rocket? Have a resources of 4 and you can probably get one. That sort of thing.

    Your story says your a well connected mercenary, but you have a resources of 0? Sounds like you lost big on your last job and don't have much cash or access to good gear. And leave it at that. A 2 is actually pretty high, given the level we're playing at. A 3 is really high and should allow a character to get some acceptable gear, but never high end gear. That is the purview of the military and organized crime. Now, if the GM uses it on us, then we can gain access through recycling.

    Generally anything stronger than stuff that's street legal should require refresh, I think. That's my view, but I think other's opinions should count more than mine.

    Money has always been an issue in the FATE system while the ambiguity of a resource roll keep accounting to a minimum it normal turns into 1 player having the skill and providing for the rest of the group. There is nothing wrong with this per se if everyone is ok with it. What I would not like is everyone having the same or even better gear when 1 character has given up other skills to have a higher resource skill, but doesn't really see any benefit by having spent the points on the resource skill instead of a combat skill for example.

    I personally, and not a fan of a Resource skill. Bulldogs FATE for example uses a resource rating which is based off of your "job/career" skill so that way you get something useful. If you are a Merchant for example the base of your resource rating comes from your Trader skill. It's similar but separates it out.

    BULLDOGS FATE wrote:Buying Things
    You’ll end up buying most of your gear, and to do that you need to know how much money you have. Wealth in Bulldogs! is an abstract concept. Specific numbers of galactic credits aren’t important and—thanks to things like a purely credit-based economy, huge amounts of property ownership, and other such complications— keeping track of specific credits would likely be a game in and of itself, and not a very fun one. As such, wealth in Bulldogs! is measured using your character’s Resources score. Resources works a lot like a skill in play, but there are some significant differences.

    Resources
    Resources represents the cash and credit a character has on hand and can muster to make purchases. All characters begin with Average (+1) Resources. A high Trading or Gambling skill can increase starting Resources (page 94 and page 105, Skills chapter). Use whichever skill confers the greater Resources level—the starting Resources indicated by the skills isn’t cumulative.

    Making a Purchase
    All items have a cost rating—you’ll find tables with costs later on, where gear is listed. When you want to buy an item, its cost sets the difficulty for a Resources roll. A Resources roll is slightly different than a skill roll. You can’t invoke any regular aspects. There’s a special kind of aspect called a Resources aspect; if you have any of these, you may invoke them. Resources aspects are always fragile—they disappear once they’re used. Resources aspects are the only modifier you can use on a Resources roll.

    If your roll succeeds, you acquire the item, either through spending liquid cash, liquidating other assets, barter, or any combination.

    If your roll fails, you’re faced with a choice. You may still purchase the item by reducing your Resources by one step for every shift the roll failed by. This means you liquidated assets, emptied your bank account, and permanently reduced your available cash in order to get the item. If you don’t want to reduce Resources based on the failed roll, the GM can offer you the following options:

    •• You can’t find the item at a price you can pay. You may not try to purchase it again until you’ve gone to a completely new region or planet.
    •• You can’t gather your credit and cash quickly enough to purchase it; by the time you do, it’s no longer for sale.
    •• The item is of inferior quality. It has negative aspects that the GM can tag for free once per session. The item has one of these aspects for each shift by which your roll failed.
    •• You can get a less valuable item of comparable purpose. This item is valued at your actual Resources roll result. If you rolled Average (+1), you can get an Average (+1) value item, etc.

    If you settle for one of these conditions, your Resources isn’t reduced by the purchase.

    Multiple characters can’t pool their Resources. Even one step of Resources represents a big difference in available cash. Poorer characters really can’t help wealthier ones.

    Resources Aspects
    When you successfully complete an unusually big job, or come across some loot or treasure, you can gain a Resources aspect. Resources aspects are things like A Big Score, Flush with Cash, or Salvaged Parts. The GM awards these based on the situation. Resources aspects are always fragile—they disappear when you use them. These are the only aspects that can be used to help a Resources roll.

    Getting in Debt
    When you’re attempting to purchase items that cost significantly more than your current Resources, things get a bit more interesting. To buy an item that costs more than your current Resources score, loans or other agreements must be made. The value of the loan is equal to the value of the item being purchased less one—you need a Good (+3) loan to buy a Great (+4) item. This assumes you’re covering part of the cost yourself from your own Resources. If your Resources is Mediocre (+0) or less, no one will give you a loan.

    The value of the loan—Great (+4), Superb (+5), Legendary (+6), etc.—is noted on your sheet below Resources. The GM can compel a loan just like an aspect, so the person or organization that gave you the loan must be noted. Until the loan is paid off, it acts just like a regular aspect.

    Make a Resources check using the loan instead of your regular Resources. You gain a free shift (+1) on this roll. If successful, the loan can buy the item. If the roll fails, refer to the failed Resources check rules above, but you still owe the money on the loan. Yes, it’s possible to fail the purchase roll after securing the loan!

    You pay back your debt by making a Resources roll against the loan as if it’s an item with a value equal to the loan amount. Such a payment reduces the value of the loan by one step—Good (+3) to Fair (+2), for example. It’s considered paid off when its value is Mediocre (+0). You may not make more than one repayment attempt per session.

    Failed repayment rolls either reduce your Resources by one step or increase the value of the loan by one step (interest!).

    Example: Quinn wants to buy a sniper rifle. Don’t ask why. You don’t want to know. She has Average (+1) Resources. The sniper rifle has a Great (+4) cost. She’s pretty certain she won’t be able to buy it without a loan. She goes to a shady character she knows and asks for the money. Her loan shark gives her a loan with a value of Good (+3), and she makes a Resources check with a free +1 using the loan value instead of her Resources. It’s enough to buy the rifle, and she notes the loan down on her sheet: Slick Fronted the Cash (+3).After a couple of missions, the GM decides to tag the loan. Quinn’s loan shark wants a payment now, or she can do him the favor of roughing up another debtor. Quinn would rather just pay her loan down, so she makes a Resources roll. She’s rolling her Average (+1) Resources against the loan value of Good (+3). This will be tough, but luckily Quinn and the crew just made a big score and she has the Resources aspect Flush with Cash. She rolls, getting a Fair (+2) result—not quite good enough. She invokes Flush with Cash, bumping her result to Great (+4). She makes the payment to Slick and reduces her loan to a Fair (+2) value.

    Raising Resources
    How do you get more Resources? An Average (+1) Resources is barely enough to buy anything, and obviously it’s not too hard to end up with a Resources of Mediocre (+0). To increase Resources, you need an available Resources aspect, which represents a onetime score or infusion of liquid cash. You can turn this into permanent Resources by investing it, purchasing property, or something along those lines. To raise your Resources, make a test against the new Resources score and invoke a Resources aspect you’ve acquired. This aspect gives you a +2 on the roll, just like a regular aspect. If successful, adjust your Resources up one level. If you fail, you make some bad investments
    and it goes down one level. You can invoke other Resources aspects if you’re failing the roll. Like always, Resources aspects are lost once you invoke them.

    Example: Brunda is also Flush with Cash after the last mission, but she doesn’t owe some scumbag for a loan. She decides to bump up her Resources. Her Resources are currently Average (+1), so she needs to make a roll against a Fair (+2) difficulty to raise it one step. She makes her roll, burning her Flush with Cash aspect. She gets a Great (+4) result, more than enough to increase her Resources to Fair (+2).

    This is pretty much the kind of system I use
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    The Merlin

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  The Merlin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:25 am

    Nice information. I just might steal some of that. though I don't think I want to take it that far. I will make sure the resources skill is properly utilized.

    I'm in line to think of resources as an ability to obtain items in game and to replace lost items easily...for example, big bad monsters trashed your car. based on resources you are able to borrow, buy, find another one and it doesn't impact the story much. Need some explosives...resources 0...nice try...resources 3 ok we can work with that. Need a hotel room...same deal, skill 0 have fun at the flea bite motel, skill of 3 welcome to the Hyatt. That's not to say poor characters cant work in game to find/acquire higher resource gear. just that it will be more part of the story. and they will have to work for it.

    Another facet of resources is to reflect upon your persistent gear. A character with high resources can have nicer clothes, car, apartment etc.

    Now on to spending money, can the resources 0 character afford a cup of coffee...or lunch? I think so...or they could be destitute per the players vision.
    I think characters can buy any appropriate level item within reason. A new shirt, a flashlight a camp stove etc.
    The advantage of a higher resources skill is that you can get more and higher end items. Dinner tickets to the supernatural fundraiser perhaps, or a tux, fancy computer etc...

    I don't think we need to account for every dollar, instead I recommend that we focus on what's appropriate. If a character has a job they have some spending money, items, gear and the ability to make appropriate purchases in game.

    Perhaps in the future when a character is looking for a specific or unique item I'll Google its price and fit it to a resources level. Really its all about the story...


    Last edited by The Merlin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

    archongamer

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  archongamer on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:53 am

    The Merlin wrote:Nice information. I just might steal some of that. though I don't think I want to take it that far. I will make sure the resources skill is properly utilized.

    I'm in line to think of resources as an ability to obtain items in game and to replace lost items easily...for example, big bad monsters trashed your car. based on resources you are able to borrow, buy, find another one and it doesn't impact the story much. Need some explosives...resources 0...nice try...resources 3 ok we can work with that. Need a hotel room...same deal, skill 0 have fun at the flea bite motel, skill of 3 welcome to the Hyatt. That's not to say poor characters cant work in came to find/acquire higher resource gear. just that it will be more part of the story. and they will have to work for it.

    Another facet of resources is to reflect upon your persistent gear. A character with high resources can have nicer clothes, car, apartment etc.

    Now on to spending money, can the resources 0 character afford a cup of coffee...or lunch? I think so...or they could be destitute per the players vision.
    I think characters can buy any appropriate level item within reason. A new shirt, a flashlight a camp stove etc.
    The advantage of a higher resources skill is that you can get more and higher end items. Dinner tickets to the supernatural fundraiser perhaps, or a tux, fancy computer etc...

    I don't think we need to account for every dollar, instead I recommend that we focus on what's appropriate. If a character has a job they have some spending money, items, gear and the ability to make appropriate purchases in game.

    Perhaps in the future when a character is looking for a specific or unique item I'll Google its price and fit it to a resources level. Really its all about the story...

    Dresden works that you have items on hand or access to items of Resource -2, so a 0 resource allows player to have items on hand WITHOUT a roll of $10 or less anything above $10 requires a roll

    RPG, Page 322 wrote:For anything higher than Resources–2, or in any case where the item in question is rare, restricted in legality (like, only for military or police use), or has to be acquired within a certain timeframe, call for a skill roll.

    Resource Scale page 322 wrote:Terrible(-2) Under $10, Poor(-1) Under $50, Mediocre(0) Under $250, Average(+1) Under $500, Fair(+2) Under $1,000, Good(+3) Under $5,000, Great(+4) Under $10,000, Superb(+5) Under $100,000, Fantastic(+6) Under $1 million, Epic(+7) Under $10 million, Legendary(+Cool Money is no object

    That's why it's so hard when everyone uses Resource as a dump skill and in reality can't afford anything more than a coffee, it can put the GM in a tough spot. You could always adjust the scale and say, for example,Terrible(-2) Under $50, Poor(-1) Under $100, so at -2 on hand without a roll is under $50. Keep in mind there is a Resource stunt that people can get that reduces the Resource -2 to Resource -0 for on hand items so you might not want to adjust that part of the scale.


    Last edited by archongamer on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:20 pm

    I'm wondering if this is just yet another of those issues where Alex and I see things just a few degrees apart -- but it might as well be an ocean!

    I think it is great that you groove on the resources skill and want to see it used more. But if others haven't bothered to give it any skill points (or even just 1 point), then that tells you how important the group sees the skill. Could the ST penalize people for not using one of their 4 highest attributes for it? Sure, but that's a rookie move. It would get in the way of play. If everyone had a Resources of 3 that would tell you something was deeply wrong with your game.

    Not every skill has the same value. Nor should it. There's a difference between balance and parity. We want balance. We want no part of parity. There are something like 25 skills. We only have points to go into what? 13 or 14 skills? Two at a 4 and two at a 3, maybe 3 at a 2? If resources of zero means you can't spend $10 without a roll, then the system is screwed up!

    Definitionally, the average driving skill is mediocre. (I think it is funny that it's not "average", but words are funny things). People manage to drive to work, get groceries and pick up the kids from soccer practice with a mediocre skill all the time. But, the typical person you see behind the wheel doesn't have any special skill in high speed chases -- the kinds of things we need the skill for. Making people make driving checks for anything but highly stressful situations would be game stalling, reality snapping and not a lot of fun.

    Maybe you can tell me what it is that you're worried will happen that will be unfair to you or your character around a relaxed use of the skill? Cause I'm just not seeing it. Unless characters suddenly start running around with thermite grenades, level 3 body armor and flying cars. That would be bad.

    But if you want people to make die rolls to pay for a taxi, I don't think I'm going to enjoy that game. That would create a skill tax around resources and bog down the game with money issues -- and I don't play games so I can stress over money.

    I think that Alex will agree with the bulk of what I posted here, but that is where the few degrees of separation come in. I write to try to get at the broad, "feeling" issues, whereas I think that Alex tends to focus in on specific, thinking issues. I really see the rules as guidelines and don't believe that every element must be reinforced to make for a good game.
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:24 pm

    Great post Josh. Makes sense to me.

    archongamer

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  archongamer on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:58 pm

    Slagathore wrote:I'm wondering if this is just yet another of those issues where Alex and I see things just a few degrees apart -- but it might as well be an ocean!

    I think it is great that you groove on the resources skill and want to see it used more. But if others haven't bothered to give it any skill points (or even just 1 point), then that tells you how important the group sees the skill. Could the ST penalize people for not using one of their 4 highest attributes for it? Sure, but that's a rookie move. It would get in the way of play. If everyone had a Resources of 3 that would tell you something was deeply wrong with your game.

    Not every skill has the same value. Nor should it. There's a difference between balance and parity. We want balance. We want no part of parity. There are something like 25 skills. We only have points to go into what? 13 or 14 skills? Two at a 4 and two at a 3, maybe 3 at a 2? If resources of zero means you can't spend $10 without a roll, then the system is screwed up!

    Definitionally, the average driving skill is mediocre. (I think it is funny that it's not "average", but words are funny things). People manage to drive to work, get groceries and pick up the kids from soccer practice with a mediocre skill all the time. But, the typical person you see behind the wheel doesn't have any special skill in high speed chases -- the kinds of things we need the skill for. Making people make driving checks for anything but highly stressful situations would be game stalling, reality snapping and not a lot of fun.

    Maybe you can tell me what it is that you're worried will happen that will be unfair to you or your character around a relaxed use of the skill? Cause I'm just not seeing it. Unless characters suddenly start running around with thermite grenades, level 3 body armor and flying cars. That would be bad.

    But if you want people to make die rolls to pay for a taxi, I don't think I'm going to enjoy that game. That would create a skill tax around resources and bog down the game with money issues -- and I don't play games so I can stress over money.

    I think that Alex will agree with the bulk of what I posted here, but that is where the few degrees of separation come in. I write to try to get at the broad, "feeling" issues, whereas I think that Alex tends to focus in on specific, thinking issues. I really see the rules as guidelines and don't believe that every element must be reinforced to make for a good game.

    First, I didn't even start this thread or bring it back up after the day we played, I had completely let it go. But since Josh posted about it and asked questions I just referenced the rules in the book. I even stated that I wasn't even a fan of having Resource as a skill and it one of the flaws of the FATE system and posted how a different FATE system uses a different mechanic AND posted possible adjustments to the current rule, which by your response makes me fell like you didn't even read anything I posted.

    Again, I just quoted the rule in the book on the $10 or more roll so don't imply I'm saying that is what I want or I even said or implied anything wasn't fair. What I don't think is fair for anyone to be punished for spending points in a skill the rest of the group doesn't care about and then want the GM to make up for their lack of purchasing a skill, that seems more of a flaw in the group not the rules.

    It would be like no one getting the drive skill and then when they as a group decide to jump in a car and chase after someone and they need someone with Drive the group bitches and complains at the GM for running a game that uses a skill the "group" decided wasn't important.

    Just like in your comment why should anyone give up one of their few high skills to have no or very little benefit from any skill, not just resource, when they could just put those skill points into a different skill the "group" finds more useful.

    Again, I didn't care at all if Josh says this is how I'm doing x skill, all I wanted to know is how that skill is going to work, so I can spend my points accordingly.

    And honestly, I don't need the aggravation, disrespect and attacks over a game that is suppose to be fun and a way for me to escape all the stress I already have in my life and this constant type of attack, and negative comments about me at the gaming table, it's just not worth it.
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    Slagathore

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  Slagathore on Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:21 pm

    Woah, hang on there, Alex. I really didn't mean to attack you. Wow, I tried to set this up as one of those things where we just view the world slightly differently. I really care about you and how you feel about the game and your opinion of me. I will see if I can just delete my entire response if you'd like. No attack intended and I'm sorry for writing things in a way that was offensive to you.

    It was great to have you in the game. Not only did you create a great character who interacted well with the group, but I think I ended up writing more about cool things your character did in my story than about anyone else (myself excluded, as it was written first person). And your knowledge of FATE came in Handy several times for bringing much more to scenes than "I shoot at it". In particular, I learned a lot about creating temporary (fragile?) aspects.

    I am sorry for mischaracterizing your view on the importance of the resource skill. I was wrong.

    I'm sorry for implying you were concerned about a lack of fairness. I was wrong.

    I am really sorry about having made constant attacks about you at the gaming table. I was actually unaware of it, but I sure wouldn't like it myself. I am very sorry.

    I don't offer any excuses, I just want to apologize for having been hurtful in any way. I am sure Josh can delete my post for me and I will work to be a better friend in the future.
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    The Merlin

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  The Merlin on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:57 pm

    archongamer wrote:

    Dresden works that you have items on hand or access to items of Resource -2, so a 0 resource allows player to have items on hand WITHOUT a roll of $10 or less anything above $10 requires a roll

    RPG, Page 322 wrote:For anything higher than Resources–2, or in any case where the item in question is rare, restricted in legality (like, only for military or police use), or has to be acquired within a certain timeframe, call for a skill roll.

    Resource Scale page 322 wrote:Terrible(-2) Under $10, Poor(-1) Under $50, Mediocre(0) Under $250, Average(+1) Under $500, Fair(+2) Under $1,000, Good(+3) Under $5,000, Great(+4) Under $10,000, Superb(+5) Under $100,000, Fantastic(+6) Under $1 million, Epic(+7) Under $10 million, Legendary(+Cool Money is no object

    That's why it's so hard when everyone uses Resource as a dump skill and in reality can't afford anything more than a coffee, it can put the GM in a tough spot. You could always adjust the scale and say, for example,Terrible(-2) Under $50, Poor(-1) Under $100, so at -2 on hand without a roll is under $50. Keep in mind there is a Resource stunt that people can get that reduces the Resource -2 to Resource -0 for on hand items so you might not want to adjust that part of the scale.

    I think I can address this by making sure the resource skill is used as an ability or um...as a resource (LOL) What I mean is that it is more of an active skill with passive by products.

    I don't think I want to adjust the scale at all. it's there as a tool...a tool for me to use when the game warrants. But just like the Drive skill analogy most of the time to get small stuff a roll is not needed. But there could be exceptions. Just try having a naked Greek ask to buy a cup of coffee...

    Getting back to the point. Its really plot related. If a PC asks for something, I will make them make a roll if it is outside the perceived scope of what they should have. Sometimes I might require a roll because it fits the story...sometimes I might NOT require a roll because it fits the story.
    ...I encourage characters with higher resources to use it.
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    The Merlin

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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

    Post  The Merlin on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:07 am

    So it looks like I missed the last few posts in my rush to get off work. Lets try to work this out.

    When having a discussion by post it is hard to tell inflection or intent, things sometimes seem more harsh than they were meant to.

    First, Alex im sorry if at any point I contributed to you feeling attacked, either on this thread or at the table.

    Second, I want to hear everyones views and take alot of care to avoid a my-way-or-the-highway approach.

    I still want to make it clear that im taking into account all that was said when I run Dresden Files

    Now that i've said that lets move on keeping in mind that we are a team ant that I ask for input because I want to continue the collaborative dynamic that Fate and DFrpg have going for them.

    Im tempted to lock this thread but am going to hold off in case there is more feedback about session 1.


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    Re: Feedback on Play session #1

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